62 Comments. Add your own...

• 1. Rodge | September 6th, 2007 at 10:02 am

  Othello,

  Great article, we can’t say better. I hope ur appeal reaches their eyes and ears, to open their mind, because it is really what everyone, including the Aounists, are thinking inside their hearts, but they refuse to say it loud, so maybe now they will agree with you.

  God bless you, and peace for all

• 2. Theresinia | September 6th, 2007 at 12:47 pm

  The reasons for which I loved General AOUN are no longer here.
  I was 12 when I went with my parents to Baabda. I prayed every night that he returns from exile. Now he really deceived me and many of my friends with whom we talk every day about him. I am so disappointed and now I feel cheated because he is an opportunistic man like ALL OTHERS!!!

• 3. Ramzi | September 6th, 2007 at 1:00 pm

  Othello,
  Don’t waste your time…La tashtaree al 3aouni illa wal 3asa ma3aho…

• 4. Mohammad | September 6th, 2007 at 2:29 pm

  felej la t3elej

• 5. Ali | September 6th, 2007 at 3:22 pm

  Interesting, but do you really believe that you can appeal to the remining Aouni supporters? Populist leaders always attract die hard supporters that will believe that their own mother is a whore if told so…

  Anyways good luck!

• 6. M.N. | September 6th, 2007 at 6:29 pm

  i think that the aounists who will change already did… as for the present aounists…..DE2 L MAY..MAY.. ma 7ada ywajje3 albo w yta3eb 7elo…

• 7. mikel | September 6th, 2007 at 7:00 pm

  Who ever is still with aoun is like those German generals who would rather die than be with someone other than Hitler.
  I think the current members of the FPM will kill themselves when aoun dies rather than being with someone else.

  I’ve given up arguing with them a few month ago, because it’s like talking to a wall.

  As M.N. said
  Ma 7adan yta33ib 7alo w yjarrib y2anne3un.

  DE2 L MAY, MAY.

• 8. Independent | September 6th, 2007 at 7:01 pm

  Othello, I suggest you start by reviewing history before going on to accuse politicians of being- what you people might call- “Syrian traitors”. I deem it necessary to remind you that it was the decision of Lebanese Christian warlords to call upon Syria’s help in fighting off the Lebanese National Movement (LNM) and that, were it not for Syria, the Lebanese Christian militias would have been crushed by the LNM offensive. It was then-President Suleiman Frangieh (to whom the Lebanese Christian Right was allied at the time and whose grandson you accuse today of being a “Syrian traitor”) who asked for the Syrian intervention in 1976. Of course, later on, he would turn against them upon their rapprochement to Israel and after the Phalangist massacre of his family. It would also seem needless to remind you that the same western countries who called for the end of Syrian tutelage, namely the US and France, sold Lebanon out to Syria in exchange for Syrian support of the First Gulf War. You also look utterly appalled by Michel Aoun’s alliance to Hezbollah as you consider it hypocritical. Of course, what you willingly omit is the hypocrisy inherent within the alliance forged between the Lebanese Forces and the PSP considering the massacres they committed upon each other during the War of the Mountain following Israel’s withdrawal from the Chouf district in August 1983. What also seems to disgust you is Aoun’s alliance to corrupt politicians. Of course, your claim is completely true. However, you overlook once more the corruption within the ranks of March 14th, namely the LF’s racketeering of east Beirut throughout the civil war. Let us also not forget how the LF overtook the State income from the Port of Beirut (as well as running other private ports) in order to control the income sources during the Civil War. Try also the deals concluded by Amin Gemayel in exchange for his approval to dump a German company’s pollutants into Lebanon’s mountains. What truly is troubling is not your hatred towards Syria or its allies (as it is completely understandable). Rather, it is how you fail to take note of the destruction and massacres wrought upon Lebanon and its people by Israel in 1978, 1982, 1993, 1996 and 2006. It is also how you have blessed the alliance of the Lebanese Christian Right with Israel when Israel’s intervention in Lebanon has always been based on its policy to divide the Lebanese people rather than unite it. It was David Ben Gurion who had submitted a plan to his Chief of Staff ten days following the establishment of the State of Israel, in which he postulated the creation of a water-rich southernmost Lebanese Christian state allied to Israel and a northernmost Muslim state (Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle”). What differentiates Syria from Israel, is that, at the end of the day, Syria backed the Taef Agreement (which it engineered along with Saudi Arabia, the US and France) thus bringing back peace and unity to Lebanon. Israel has only brought division and suffering to Lebanon.

• 9. GMA POP 84 | September 6th, 2007 at 7:40 pm

  Min Majmoo3at “Tara2ef Shou Sa2il Ya Khalil”

  Tsawart 7eleh Aoun w3am bilqi khitab wteli3 ma3eh al AAty;

  hala2it niyeh, min hiyyeh hal sulta aw
  jame3it 14 azar li 3am bidef3o 3annon, hawdeh qurtet sera2in w fesdeen, woo wooo woo wbikil wa2e7a 3am bi2ooloolna shoo wkif badna nitsaraf!!??, yiste7o ba2a.(ma3 3ayta then 3youn 3am tighzol, w7araket bawseh aw zammit shfef tabayin serieux bil awal w mahdoum bil ekhir)

  Khalo limhajjareen bil jabal yerja3o bil2awal. Bas 17% rej3o lal jabal (7asab e7sa2et Aoun Ipsos) wbi2oolo fee musala7a!!. Al musala7a bitkoon biwar2it tafahom
  __________________________________________
  honeh al 3awdeh ilal zat:
  bas yalli 3aqlo salim lezim yfakker
  ( 3al 2ases hal war2a 2idrit traji3 al masi7iyeh 3ala 7aret 7rayk wba2it al qosm kbeer min shabeb al masi7iyyeh bi lebanon ba3d 7arb tammooz aw yalli harabo 3a israel ysahloolon al raj3a or tiln7al 2osit al masajeen bi souriya

  ba3den ma byirja3o al masi7iyeh yalli hejaro la hayk balad fee mu7ewalit inqilab min M8 wma byirja3o talama fee nes 3am bitshaji3 al hiqd wal karahieh bayn al tawa2ef or 7atta bi 2alb al ta2ifa zatiha mitil ma 3am ya3mil hizbak wsehrakbassil and sleiman f).

  ___________________________________________
  wibkaffi al khitab:

  N2il30 BA2A

  Wbil nisbeh lal ree2aseh, Ana afdal ra2ees tawefu2eh, khala2ni allah wkasar el Qalib,ana unique(l7amdella )ana jeet la salle7 al ghalat wbaddeh wajih al sulta wil sha3b 3al sa7. w7esibon….
  __________________________________________
  3awda ilal zat:
  bas yalli 3aqlo salim lezim yfakker:

  (3al 2ases ma 2abadt min Iran, or harabit 3a france ma3 masriyet el nes, aw 7ulafe2ak jame3teh ndaf mitil : murr, berri, awmeh, baathy, frangiyeh, wahab, HA ’s State…
  ______________________________________________
  “Ana jeet la elghy al iqta3″.
  __________________________________________________

  bas yalli 3aqlo salim lezim yfakker:

  (Uff Atalitna feeha, wmeen ittaham bil iqta3iyeh? bayt Gemayel, yalli tawasalo ma3 al sha3b wil 3emmal wnizlo defa3o 3an al watan bi ardil ma3raky wle72o al sha3b.

  bas su2al yutra7…Skaff, Erslan, Frangiyeh, al Murr.. hawdeh shoo?!! eh okhteh)
  __________________________________________
  bkaffeh al khitab:(me as Aoun)
  7ejeh ba2a ya3toona 2emla2it, Hinneh sarlon 15 sineh ya3toohoon 2emla2at wba3don 3am yitsarafo zet al shee…
  Mberi7 kint 3am dandin ghiniyeh la Pink Floyd ghinniyeh bit2ool:” we don’t need no education we don’t need no thought control”.
  ___________________________________________
  (Mlee7 Mlee7)
  3awda ilal zat:
  (Mni7 al wa7ad iza kan yekhod emla2at woo wa2af ba3dayn. Ba3dena mish el kil kan yekhod emla2at, Kataeb, A7rar , Kitleh, Ouwet hol 7ada byistarjeh ya3teehon emla2at ,Bas al 3atab wil mishikli 3a yalli bye3teber 7elo 7urr yseer ba3den yekhod emla2at.)
  ___________________________________________
  3eshtom wa3asha lubnan.
  _________________________________________________________
  ____________________________________
  Bta3arfo shoo?
  Ab3idoo 3anni hazil kaas

  _

• 10. FoX | September 6th, 2007 at 10:36 pm

  Syria accepted the taef agreement and was binded by its rules… Is this a joke??

  Lebanon was left alone in the 1976, Western countries did not interfere. The Lebanese christians had to call for an aid , and there was no option but to let syria enter.Syria got the western acceptance to enter Lebanon. It may have fought the palestinians, but it was not for the sake of Lebanese but for to build a presence in lebanon and occupy it later. Syrians, fought the christians, HA, palestinians to make sure that she remains the prevailing power.
  The LF and kataeb in the late 70’s and 80’s needed weapons to fight the palestinians and their allies and since israel was near lebanon they had to buy arms and weaponry and sometimes train to face the Syrian and palestinian-islamic threat at that time. Israel sure does not want lebanon united, but Syria’s interferences and occupation did not but divide the Lebanese and it’s continuing until these days.

  The past is gone we must look into the future, we must be united. What’s wrong if Samir Geagea and Jumblat are allies, so do you want them to fight each other forever. The 14th of March want to build a better future for the Lebanese, a peaceful prosperous Lebanon.

• 11. Independent | September 7th, 2007 at 2:15 am

  Fox, for starters, I feel obliged to dispute the term “Syrian occupation”, especially since Syria originally entered the country at the request of the Lebanese government. This is in stark contradiction to Israel’s involvement in Lebanon which can irrefutably be described as invasions and occupation.
  Furthermore, it was Syria which mainly orchestrated the Taef accord, reached “to provide the basis for the ending of the civil war and the return to political normalcy in Lebanon.” It ended the decades-long Lebanese civil war, politically accommodated the demographic shift to a Muslim majority, reasserted Lebanese authority in South Lebanon, (then occupied by Israel), and legitimized the Syrian presence in Lebanon. Thus, it was in Syria’s interest to bring about Lebanese national reconciliation and stability-considering it engineered the Taef Agreement.
  I also feel obliged to point out the contradiction in your comment. First, you claim that “Lebanon was left alone in the 1976; Western countries did not interfere” before going on to say that “Syria got the western acceptance to enter Lebanon” meaning that the West did in fact interfere in the Christian Right’s favor. Indeed, the US, France and Israel had given the green light for the Syrians to intervene by the Christians’ side in order to fend off the LNM offensive.
  Moreover, I am compelled to disagree with your assertion that “Syria’s interferences only divided the Lebanese”. Indeed, as renowned UK journalist Robert Fisk maintains in his book “Pity the Nation”, had Syria not intervened in 1976 and ended the civil war pitting the Christian Right and the LNM, things would have gone wildly out of control. The same holds true for the Syrian intervention in 1987 in the civil war pitting Amal and the PSP in West Beirut.
  Of course, one cannot assume that Syria acted out of pure good faith in Lebanon. For instance, consider the 1976 Syrian intervention. At the time, Syria had its own political and territorial interests in Lebanon, which namely harbored cells of the Islamists and anti-Ba’thist Muslim Brotherhood, and was also a possible route of attack for Israel. However, its intervention ended up indirectly bringing about national reconciliation, unity, peace and, most importantly, an end to the civil war.
  Finally, it seems troubling how you find it so simple to accept the LF-PSP alliance blindly and to forget about all those who died in the War of the Mountains fighting for their leaders. If, in your words, “the past is gone we must look into the future, we must be united”, I am wondering why you find it so difficult to forget about your animosity towards Syria just as you have so easily forgotten about your animosity towards Jumblatt. Is it simply because you want to read history your own way, Fox?

• 12. Ali 1559 | September 7th, 2007 at 6:03 am

  Independent

  Hats-off , Sir !

  And for othello , when we view conflict as a negative experience, we may be hurting our chances of dealing with it effectively . In order to to deal with this issue (internal conflict) YOU need to use positive, constructive conflict resolution skills (wich ouwet dont) ….FMPers (aounist that you are talking about) are working hard to achieve unity when you are LOOKING forward on our division or how to divide lebanon in order to live under your
  federalism or the DREAM!

  At last , Be specific as you describe the factors that triggered your anger, and be clear about the resolution you are seeking . Since aoun represent 49 % of the christians and 47% in general , dont you think it’s time for you to stop and ask yourself where does 7akim stand?

  Peace chrike bil watan .

• 13. othello | September 7th, 2007 at 8:40 am

  Ali

  you want to convince me that the current conflict has positive aspects??? are you sure you know what you are saying bro???

  In case you do not live in Lebanon, you should come and see how thick the tension is between both parties of the conflict and you should talk to the people to understand to what extent hatred has nested itself in their souls…

  So excuse me but I see nothing but negative experiences in this conflict.

  Positive, Constructive, conflict resolution you say? and like FPM you say??? let me ask you something my friend…where did you see those applied by the FPM specifically??? I do not see them being applied inside their own family and thats the Christians…ultimately, one should practice what one preaches no????

  so pray enlighten me and point me to where you see those constructive conflict resolution skills being applied…

  for instance:

  1- I did not see them applied on the 23rd of January 2007

  2- I did not see them applied when aoun resorted to forgery to convince the people that the LF were shooting at the crowds

  3- I did not see them applied in any of aouns speeches, especially those targeting the M14 audiences….in case your memory fails you, aoun considered, and on multiple occasions, the 14M people to be intellectually inferior since, as he claims, “they failed to understand the MOU”…

  4- since the FPMers are soo good in problem solving and so constructive and so positive, HOW COME THOSE VERTUES WERE NEVER APPLIED WITH THE LF OR WITH THE PSP OR THE FM?????? or they are selective as to where to apply them??? for instance HA does not pose any threat for the presidential seat since they are shiites, so we can ally with them…

  but when it comes to M14, quickly do we forget that we started the path together and that they have all embraced the very creed aounists were professing between 1990 and 2005…

  quickly do we also forget that HA and the rest of M8 are still LOYAL to Syria and as such, are liable to ct as syrias agents here in Lebanon…

  So please, REFRAIN FROM INSULTING OUR COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE when you say “FPMers are working to achieve unity”…because unity is one thing their current tactics will NEVER achieve… you do not achieve unity by insulting, alienating and accusing others of all sorts of heinous crimes.

  If after reading all this you still do not understand what triggered my anger, what can I tell you…one can take the horse to the water but one cannot force it to drink.

  cheers

• 14. Othello | September 7th, 2007 at 10:05 am

  Independent (although I dont believe there is such a thing…is there )

  I will break my reply down into segments because I actually have a message to put through and am not writing just to write.

  You see, I believe that people who squeeze everything together are actually writing to say nothing…strings of words … aimless and pointless…

  1- Syria did not need any permission to enter Lebanon. It was planning this and working for it since as early as 1970. In fact back in 72-73, there was constant flow of weapons to Fatah guerrillas arriving from Syrian borders. so the story about it needing any permissions to come in, it doesn’t really pass with me.

  2- In his famous speech, Assad himself declared that he needed no invitation to come into Lebanon.

  3- From the day it entered, Syria did the Christians more harm than good. It is true it did fight off some of Abou Ammar’s men, but it was not because it wanted to help the Christians, but rather to curb Fata7 that ws growing out of control and could pose a threat to its own security.

  4- since you claim to be such a history buff, check out on Qnat, Bella, Zahle, Ashrafiyi wars…was Syria helping the Christians here????

  5- what appalls me in Aouns relation with M8 is his total 180 degree flop. From being an ardent anti syrian he is now their closest indirect ally. you see in your writing you ignore the fact that HA, Amal, SSNP etc are still very much pro syrian and you ignore the fact that despite the fact it has pulled out its military from Lebanon, syria is still trying to wreck havoc in this country. If you do not find this appalling…wht can I say.

  6- regarding the alliance between PSP and LF. True we fought each other and there were massacres between the two, but today we have joined hands to face a common enemy. PSP came back to what the LF has been calling for for over 3 decades…why the hell do you want me to shoot them for this? I do not understand your logic here…

  7- I did not overlook any corruption anywhere. I simply underlined the hypocrisy in aouns fight gainst corruption when he is allied to the very symbols of corruption.

  8- again you mix sha3ben bi ramadan. wht has the LF “raketeering” in the civil war got to do with March 14 in 2007????? shou jeb trazan 3a cyberia???

  Do I need to remind you, my dear history buff, that the worst acts committed by the LF were done in the days of Elias Hobeika and that Aoun is one of HK’s best friends??? how are we to understand this????

  Now I see why you squeezed all your text like this…because you were writing to write…

  You want to go back to history, I would be more than glad, but you would be in the shoes of he who lives in a glass house amigo…

  for instance, ever wondered how Aoun got to the post of Leader of the armed forces???? nd why did he come at that crucial time, replacing Tannous????

  Ever wondered what was the reason behind aouns visit to Syria in 1985???

  Ever asked what was Aouns stance vis a vis the tripartite agreement????

  Trust me man, you do not want to dive into a historical duel with me…

  anyways to get back to your post:

  well heck…theres nothing left of your post to comment about…cheech…

  do they teach you this in orange school???? you remind me very much of Nabil Ncoula and the other FPM MPs…when they call a TV program and spend an hour speaking to say nothing…

  oh by the way…why do you guys always pretend to be independent or neutral??? I mean re you guys so much ashamed of admitting you are what you are????

  And to cap it all off, you claiming to be independent, choose as email a very insulting term…then come and lecture me about history and ethics and living together…

  “nique ouweti” ya istez tells me how high your level of education is and how “independent” you truly are…it also tells me of the mental age of the person I am replying to and basically negates all the pompous words and whatchamakallit you posted trying to show off your english language skills…

  change your mentality dude…change it fast because it will harm you more than anyone else.

  cheers

• 15. GMA POP 84 | September 7th, 2007 at 11:44 am

  A Baathist ex minister that was previously siding with kamel al Assaad during the 1976 said to a Kataeb party member ” don’t be happy of syria’s intervention because this is an occupying army, when it enters it shall stay for a long time. hayda jaish e7tilal.

  Syria is an enemy and will remain until it cahanges its attitude towards Lebanon and stops its envy and negative interference

  Who’s Robert Fisk to rely on. Robert Fisk is pro-palestinan and Syrian journalist. He thinks that if he’s a foreign reporter he knows everything , while in fact he needs a lot to be a decent reporter and writer

• 16. othello | September 7th, 2007 at 11:54 am

  Well, Robert Fisk is the latest great writer as per the M8 people…since he writes whatever makes them feel good, they consider him as the journalist of all times…

  Sad when people refuse to recognize the reality thats staring them in the eye.

• 17. Independent | September 7th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

  Othello, I am wondering whether ANY historical fact passes with you. It is, as I have told Fox, simply because you want to look at history through your own eyes. My comment basically fell on a kid’s deaf ears. How old are you? I mean, your reasoning powers are clearly those of an 11 or 12 year-old. The words you have so carefully and meticulously chosen (“history buff”, “shou jeb trazan 3a cyberia”, “would be in the shoes of he who lives in a glass house amigo”, “cheech”, “do they teach you this in orange school”, “ya istez”, oh and my personal favorite: “whatchamakallit”) attest to that level of maturity and intelligence so rife within the LF. I am also very glad not to have given out my real e-mail. I am glad that I followed my instincts and not trusted an LF website with personal information. By publishing my e-mail address (in violation of your statement that it will not be), you have proven how much you truly disrespect a user’s privacy and sanctity, sir. I will not bother myself again to reply to your arguments. If you had thoroughly read both my comments without being jealous about my “pompous English language skills” and without filtering out what you did not want to read, you would have gotten your answers. I will only comment on your ignorant claim that the LF’s worst massacres were committed during Elie Hobeika’s days. Here’s a list shedding light on the LF’s terrorist record. Let’s start off with some of the massacres committed on the Christians. Let there be light:
  • 13 June 1978 Ehden Massacre (death toll: at least 31 killed including Tony Franjieh, his wife and daughter). Operation ordered by Bashir Gemayel and led by Samir Geagea and Elie Hobeika.
  • July 1980 Aqua Marina Massacre at Safra (death toll: tens of Tigers’ members and their families were killed). Operation dubbed “Unification of the Rifle” by Bashir Gemayel.
  • 21 October 1980: Slaughter of Dany Chamoun, his wife and two sons. Operation led by Samir Geagea with Syrian cooperation
  Now let’s go to some of the massacres you committed on the Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians:
  • December 6, 1975 Black Saturday Massacre (death toll: estimated at 400 to 600 civilians). Christian militias Massacre of Muslims and Palestinians on the basis of ID.
  • August 1976 Tel al-Zaatar Massacre (death toll according to Amnesty International: 2000 to 3000 civilians killed). Massacre led by Kataeb, Tigers, Marada and your Syrian buddies.
  • January 1976 Karantina Massacre (death toll according to Amnesty International: more than 1000 civilians killed). Massacre by Christian militias and their Syrian buddies of Kurds, Armenians, Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians
  • September 1982 Infamous Sabra and Shatila massacre (death toll: more than 2000 civilians killed according to Lebanese Red Cross. Renowned Israeli Journalist Amnon Kapeliouk of Le Monde diplomatique puts the figure at 3500). Massacre by the LF and the consent of their Israeli buddies.
  • August 1983 Massacres in Chouf (already discussed)
  The list goes on and on. Of course, one must not overlook the massacres and terrorist nature of Amal which perpetrated unspeakable massacres against the Palestinians during the War of the Camps (1985-1987) along with their Syrian buddies. Of course, the PSP also committed massacres against the Christian inhabitants of the Chouf during the Mountain War as I have said before. Nor should one overlook the Damour massacre committed by the pro-Syrian Palestinian group As-Saiqa.
  Finally, my friend, if you are dismissing Robert Fisk then you must be mental. Here are his credentials: Amnesty International UK Press Awards in 1998, 7 times British Press Awards’ International Journalist of the year. He was also described by the New York Times as “probably the most famous foreign correspondent”. He has also received numerous honorary doctorates by various universities, including AUB for his “journalistic objectivity” He was also one of only two foreign correspondents who remained in Lebanon through the civil war. I suggest you start reading some books, kid.

• 18. GMA POP 84 | September 7th, 2007 at 3:19 pm

  well you forgot who started to kill first relying on the ID and who used to drag the killed fighters(tied to a rope and dragged on the streets by a jeep. palestinians actions were many times more unhuman than sabra and chatilla incidence.

  Palestinian’s cause is in their lands and not in Lebanon, shouf shoo sar feehon bi Jordan “black September”

  when hobeika wanted to reveal the truth of sabra and chatila massacre he got killed, why?!!!

  Christians were defending themselves and not the first attackers.

  Why not condemn amal and palestinians;(b4 turning against each other)fida2iyeh against christian citizens in the south who were shot while driving in the south region.

  Not to forget the people from Maroun el Ras backing the fida2iyi. Who set a trap and who called for a deal with some christians figures and fighters from many christian villages and offered them poisoned tea… later the dead Christian Lebanese were dragged on the roads of Bint Jbeil tied to jeeps….( where’s amnesty international and your objective robert fisk concerning that)

• 19. Independent | September 7th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

  GMA, you committed a rookie mistake. It seems you have a lot to learn too, kid. Anybody can claim anything. There are a number of claims that you have made but none are documented. Give specific incidents (accompanied with names, dates, casualties,…) and document them with credible sources. Then I can answer you. Anyway, who are you to challenge Amnesty International or other human rights organization as well as Robert Fisk?

• 20. GMA POP 84 | September 7th, 2007 at 5:24 pm

  Man i don’t need to learn anything. If Robert fisk got an amnesty international award, Yasser Arafat got a Nobel Peace prize. ( yes they deserve it a lot)

  I don’t need documented events cause my mother is southern and I have southern friends, I visited their villages and asked about those incidents…They are all aware of it, try to ask people of Debil, Rmeich and Ainibl about the fida2iyi and amal and the incident with Maroun el Ras people and you’ll get an answer maybe you might document it later with fisk as christians civilian killed fida2iyis and islamic militias.

  Plus the LF did not kill Dani Cham3oun. Ask Dori.

  And concerning the look at history with one eye, or with my own eye… My question to you
  I did not see something concerning the palestinian massacres, bombings, kidnapping and actions towards christian civilians and party members.

• 21. GMA POP 84 | September 7th, 2007 at 5:25 pm

  fin your writings

• 22. paul | September 7th, 2007 at 9:09 pm

  most of what you wrote is either exaggerated or not proven,you have said everything what a palestinien would like to say.

• 23. paul | September 7th, 2007 at 9:10 pm

  …i mean Independent .

• 24. Independent | September 7th, 2007 at 11:03 pm

  GMA, I’m going to start by thanking you for recognizing almost all of the LF massacres. Your silence on the matter proves your recognition that the LF is a terrorist organization. Now, I ask myself: why do you remain a loyal follower? You have only disputed Dani Chamoun’s murder. And for that, I would recommend you ask Tracy Chamoun (Dani’s daughter), who has blamed her father’s assassination on Samir Geagea. She is a more reliable source as she was a witness to the assassination. She has also vowed: “If he [Samir Geagea] ever gets out of jail, I will have signed my death warrant”. Furthermore, Dory has only pardoned Geagea, on the basis that if Geagea should be imprisoned, then so should Jumblatt. I will put an end to this issue by reminding you that, during Geagea’s trial, Gebran Tueni had testified that Dany Chamoun and he were on Geagea’s hit list.
  The incidents you mention in the South are undocumented minor events that occurred often and up till now in every single village in Lebanon with or without civil war. What we are discussing are large-scale massacres documented and reported by the international press and human rights organizations.
  Finally, the reason why you did not read anything concerning the Palestinian and the Amal massacres in my posts proves what I have been saying all along: that you only read what you want to read. Indeed, I did mention, in one of my comments, the Damour Massacre and the War of the Camps as examples of Christian and Palestinian massacres respectively. The difference between you and I is that I recognize and point out the massacres committed by both sides rendering me truly independent. You, on the other hand, are simply hypocritical in the sense of the Gospels, a blind follower of a traitor and terrorist party.
  Listen, kid, the art of argumentation is not so simple and you have simply wasted my time with your doggedness.

• 25. Independent | September 7th, 2007 at 11:16 pm

  Paul, go home, kid. Find yourself a doll to play with.

• 26. mikel | September 8th, 2007 at 5:31 am

  Independent,

  Every massacre commited in the war was a retaliation to another massacre.

• 27. mikel | September 8th, 2007 at 5:34 am

  The shelling of Achrafiyeh, Zhale, Ain el remmeneh were also commited by the LF.

• 28. Mohammad | September 8th, 2007 at 10:57 am

  For the guys who are discussing the Lebanese WAR HISTORY:

  When you reach a result please tell us!

  We are now in 2007 and worried about presidential elections and about the future of Lebanon and you are still discussing what happened in 70s and 80s?!!!!!

  With all respect to what you are discussing and the importance of history to develope a future, Can we move to 2007 and see what can be done to save our country?

• 29. Independent | September 8th, 2007 at 11:35 am

  Mohammad, we would have gotten to a result a long time ago were it not for the LF members’ stubborness. When presented with concrete facts, these people simply refuse to let themselves be convinced. I guess this generally applies to all Rightists.

• 30. GMA POP 84 | September 8th, 2007 at 12:25 pm

  The palestians harmed themselves more than any other party which fought against them.

  Tracy Cham3oon was in the states, when her father was killed. The ouwet had no presence there, the area was under the control of the syrians, LF or ouwet couldn’t reach it.
  Dori cham3oon believes that syria killed his brother( don’t spread other wrong beliefs)

  Moreover, the ones the LF fought agaisnt and killed were not angels.

  My silence doesn’t mean that i believe you

• 31. othello | September 8th, 2007 at 4:39 pm

  Mohammed…

  History was made for people to learn from it and not to keep plunging in it at every tick of the tock… I do agree with you that its useless to recall all those events but when you see someone who is either blatantly falsifying history or who is showing a total ignorance of the said history, you cannot sit aside and do nothing.

  Independent

  when you ask people to: “Give specific incidents (accompanied with names, dates, casualties,…) and document them with credible sources.” dont you think it would give your words more weight when you do the same??? especially when you start quoting history and mixing sh3ben with ramadan???

• 32. Independent | September 8th, 2007 at 5:33 pm

  GMA, fine i’ll hand this to you. Not entirely, though. Tracy Chamoun was in the UK at the time of her father’s assassination, and not in the States. Nevertheless, this does not change the fact that Tracy blames her father’s assassination on Samir Geagea. As I have previously stated, Dory had pardoned Geagea. However, in line with a lebanese politician’s tendency to switch his positions according to a changing regional balance, Dory then declared publicly on 25 April 2005 that he “BELIEVED Geagea to be innocent” and demanded “a new investigation to uncover the real assassins”, whom he “SUSPECTED of being Syrian agents.” Furthermore, you cannot deny that Gebran Tueni testified in court that he and Dani Chamoun were on Geagea’s hit list.
  Again, I must say, Bravo. You have managed to create a cloud of doubt into only ONE of the numerous terrorist massacres that the LF have committed against unarmed Christian allies and foes. However, let us not forget the 1980 surprise attack on the NLP headquarters in which Phalangist militiamen, under the command of Bashir Gemayel, kidnapped Tracy and her mother and Tracy recounts “her harrowing experience” in her book “Au Nom Du Pere”. GMA, yes it is completely true that the LF’s enemies were not angels. Yes, they did commit a lot of massacres against the Christians too. However, they pale in comparison to the massacres committed by the LF. Many international human rights organizations have accused the LF and their allies of committing “war crimes” and of “deliberately targeting unarmed civilians, including women and children”. See Amnesty International and HRW. Why do you still follow a terrorist organization? Please answer it.

• 33. Independent | September 8th, 2007 at 5:43 pm

  Othello, read my comments again and you will find numerous sources. Have you forgotten that you have even disputed some of my very credible sources such as Robert Fisk, Amnesty International and other human rights organizations? One question remains: Will you yield in time?

• 34. paul | September 8th, 2007 at 7:39 pm

  you think you are someone special,i can read your informations in any cheap boock.and by the way thx the kataeb and the LF i am at home,and i have many dolls to play with,but surely i will not change myself to a doll,and if you have the time to write a whole newspaper you have no right to see the others as kids,ya billy the kid inta.

• 35. Independent | September 8th, 2007 at 10:34 pm

  Paul, I hear the new barbie is out.

• 36. paul | September 8th, 2007 at 10:49 pm

  do you make jokes? to whom do you say that? I know for a long time.

• 37. mikel | September 8th, 2007 at 10:49 pm

  Independent,

  Of course we’re gonna be stuborn.
  And we’re gonna stick by our beliefs and not change them.

• 38. paul | September 8th, 2007 at 10:52 pm

  Independent,perhaps you can tell us something about the revolution of 1959

• 39. paul | September 8th, 2007 at 10:55 pm

  …58

• 40. Independent | September 9th, 2007 at 12:33 pm

  Mikel, I truly appreciate your honesty for pointing out that you people are stubborn and that you only stick to beliefs and not to historical facts. You may chose to believe magic or Santa Clause or the candyman. It may or may not be true. However, history is irrefutable truth.

• 41. darko | September 9th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

  hey independent, i’m really impressed by your “pompous English language skills”, could you please contact me at my blog, i wanna chat with you online, do you have a blog or something like that?

• 42. mikel | September 9th, 2007 at 9:08 pm

  Independent,

  Historical facts show that we should stick to our beliefs.

  Our beliefs today are based on historical facts.

  Recent history has shown us what the current opposition has done when it was in power.
  That’s why our beliefs today are not to give them back the power of making decisions on a silver platter.

  We have stuck by our beliefs for decades, and they haven’t changed a bit; unlike others…

• 43. Independent | September 10th, 2007 at 12:20 am

  mikel, have you even ever opened a history book?

• 44. Independent | September 10th, 2007 at 12:23 am

  darko, sure i’ll be happy to discuss any issue of your choice. I just hope you’re not close-minded like the people in this blog.

• 45. othello | September 10th, 2007 at 7:51 am

  Independent

  Chill out with the holier than thou attitude will you pal…

  Your historical facts or should I say your total lack of historical knowledge has shown without a single doubt who is stubborn and who is willing to discuss…

• 46. othello | September 10th, 2007 at 10:28 am

  Independent…

  1- resorting to personal attacks tells me a lot about your dialog capabilities…nevertheless, I will pass on this…as for my age, believe me I am old enough to recognize BS when I read it and I am also old enough to UNDERSTAND whats wrong with aoun…anyways,…

  2- I gave your email? man your tactics dont work here, UNDERSTAND this…go try those silly kid pranks elsewhere…matter of fact you (who call yourself INDEPENDENT) ought to be ASHAMED of this…this is whats important…DO NOT TWIST FACTS.

  3-me jealous of what??? come again will you??? geeeeez…yalla I will ignore this as well…typical diversion techniques…ll this to switch to another subject….unbelivable;)

  4- regarding your “historic facts” let me clarify this for you because you seem to have gotten your history from abou koko down the road from the fish market…or perhaps tante josephine in last weeks sob7iyi at tante nelly’s…

  a- the ehden massacre: Gegea was hit before he got to the castle and as such HK is the prime responsible for whatever happened there. And as you stated, the incident took place in 78…Geagea took over command of the LF in 86.

  b- Aqua Marina massacre was again masterminded by HK…and just to remind you in 1980 Geagea was no where near Jounieh nor Jubeil…in fact he was in Qattara …

  c- Dany Cham3oun was killed in 1990 not 1980…and in october not in June…re check your sources…moreover, Geagea was never found guilty of this and you are basing yourself on NOTHING when you make this claim

  d- 1975 was before the birth of the LF my dear Independent…at that rte, you omitted the crucification of Jesus Christ, the flooding of the earth prior to Noah’s arch, the volcano that destroyed Pompeii…

  e- Tall el Zatar Massacre you say? nother proof you know nothing of the history of the man you follow so blindly…your beloved general was an artillery lieutenant back then, code name Rad and was attached to the Tanzim group…he proposed bombarding the camp a proposition that lead to nowhere seeing the fortifications the Palestinians had (as usual, total lack of strategy and ignorance in the art of warfare)

  f- sabra and chatilla were carried out by who again??? care to tell me who, in the LF was in charge???

  now ALL the dates you listed, go actually towards proving MY point amigo…and just in case you forgot what it was in your zeal to write anything, my point was that the worst massacres were carried out BEFORE DSG took over the command of the LF.

  But why should I be surprised??? is this not typical behavior??? if you cannot convince, confuse the person in front of you, is this not part of the orange doctrine????

  cheers and do come back

• 47. othello | September 10th, 2007 at 10:53 am

  again…you have nothing to say so you go personal…I will not discuss your IQ in public, nor will I reply to the insults…they re obviously the product of a person who has nothing to say…

  I posted a long and detailed reply to your allegations…and you ignored it…nevertheless…

  keep up with this attitude…In the end, I am not loosing anything…s they say: sticks and stones may hurt my body but words will never hurt me…

  cheers dude and keep up the effort

• 48. Independent | September 10th, 2007 at 12:04 pm

  …and also kind of funny

• 49. othello | September 10th, 2007 at 12:16 pm

  And you kinda get boring over time dont you??? must be hard being stuck in a corner with nothing to say anyways we feel for you…

  a group hug for our friend “independent” to help him cope with his dependency… a dependency obviously eating him up to such extent he is forced to resort to the web to express his inner feelings…

• 50. Independent | September 10th, 2007 at 1:01 pm

  othello, comment #46 escaped my attention. Give me some time to read it and correct it.

• 51. othello | September 10th, 2007 at 1:16 pm

  I will leave your insults for all to see and will not delete them.

  you want to know why??? because masks usually fall under stress to reveal the real person beneath them.

  people who claim to be independent and educated and open eventually show their real colors when put in a tight spot…

  try harder to keep your calm … takes time and practice…but more importantly it takes education and knowledge… work on these my friend…

• 52. Independent | September 10th, 2007 at 1:19 pm

  Othello, please cite credible sources backing every allegation. I will not respond to your comment until then. Please note that credible sources do not include “abou koko”,”tante nelly”, or “tante josephine”.

• 53. othello | September 10th, 2007 at 1:34 pm

  Hahahahahaha nice shot amigo…trying to gain time???

  did you cite any sources? let me remind you that the burden of proof lies on you and not on me since you made the allegations in the first place…

  Nevertheless here are a couple of sources I generally like to read and re-read:

  = From Michel Aflak to Michel Aoun by Fayez Azzi
  = Hazihi Shahadati by Paul Andari
  = LBC archive along with Al Nahar newspaper (there was no al akhbar back then sorry chrik)
  = Innaho Howa min al wilada ila al wilada by Joseph Chartouni
  = Kossat al mawarina fil hareb by Joseph Abi Khalil

  now I bet you will come back asking me for page numbers etc bass as I told you, the burden of proof lies on you amigo so get cracking

• 54. Independent | September 10th, 2007 at 6:24 pm

  Othello, oh no, believe me; I won’t be needing any page numbers from any of the books you have mentioned. The authors you have cited are sufficient enough to confirm the bias of your sources. Let’s take a look at them:
  • Paul Andari: one of Geagea’s top-ranking lieutenants during the civil war (source: lebaneseforces.org)
  • Joseph Abou Khalil: former editor-in-chief of Phalangist-affiliated Al-Aamal newspaper; former high-ranking member of the Kataeb Party under the command of Bashir Gemayel (source: Alain Menargues, “Les Secrets de la Guerre du Liban”)
  • LBC: TV Station founded by the LF. According to Wikipedia: “It was originally the brainchild of Bashir Gemayel”.
  • An-Nahar: pro-March 14th newspaper.
  Concerning Joseph Chartouni and Fayez Azzi, I could not find anything pertaining to these names when I typed them in on Google. This implies that these authors are unknown. They are nobody.
  Now let us juxtapose your very credible sources against the sources I have mentioned in my comments:
  • Robert Fisk: Recipient of Amnesty International UK Press Awards in 1998, 7 times Recipient of British Press Awards’ International Journalist of the year; described by the New York Times as “probably the most famous foreign correspondent”; Received numerous honorary doctorates by various universities, including AUB for his “journalistic objectivity”; one of only two foreign correspondents who remained in Lebanon throughout the civil war (source: Wikipedia)
  • Amnesty International: International non-governmental organization which defines its mission as “to undertake research and action focused on preventing and ending grave abuses of the rights to physical and mental integrity, freedom of conscience and expression, and freedom from discrimination, within its context to promote all human rights” (source: Wikipedia, Amnesty International official website)
  • Lebanese Red Cross: founded in 1945.
  • Noam Chomsky: Institute Professor and professor emeritus of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). Described by the New York Times book review as “arguably the most important intellectual alive”. Chomsky was voted the leading living public intellectual in the 2005 Global Intellectuals Poll conducted by the British magazine “Prospect”. In a list compiled by the magazine “New Statesman” in 2006, he was voted seventh in the list of “Heroes of our time”. According to “The Nation”: “Noam Chomsky is a major scholarly resource. Not to have read him is to court genuine ignorance”. Noam Chomsky has received many honorary degrees from the most prestigious universities around the world, including: Harvard University, Georgetown, Columbia University, McGill university, Cambridge University and many more. Finally, Time Magazine in December 1999 included Noam Chomsky in its list of “The Greatest Minds of the 20th century”.
  • Alain Menargues: French investigative journalist and writer. Former director of Radio France Internationale and former Beirut correspondent of Radio France from 1982 to 1995.
  I still cannot believe how you had the guts to put these sources down as citations. I would be embarrassed.
  My friend, get it out of your mind: I am not a Partisan of Aoun. He participated in some of the massacres of the civil war. However, when balanced out against LF atrocities, Aoun’s atrocities pale in comparison. Furthermore, you should know that deep animosity exists between Aoun and Robert Fisk. Robert Fisk constantly describes Michel Aoun as “believing himself to be the Messiah”. Fisk was banned from entire East Beirut during the entire War of Liberation by Michel Aoun because of that statement. Hence, Fisk does not speak at all in the name of the Opposition.
  To sum it up, go take a few courses in college to learn argumentative writing principles. And then we can discuss properly, kid.

• 55. N10452 | September 10th, 2007 at 6:50 pm

  Independant,
  Try to learn some respect when replying .. and remember this is an LF blog, not a place to insult Bashir …

  Fa ya kbeer inta ( since we are all kids to u), i appreciate ur comments but stay polite and if anyone is impolite to you, report it.

  Cheers.

• 56. Othello | September 10th, 2007 at 10:23 pm

  N10452

  3ifo man…when a guy like this calls me a kid, he is insulting himself rather than me…why? quite simply because a when a simple kid is able to counter his so called arguments, it tells you that despite his alleged age, he has no knowledge

  Independent,

  Re read your post habibi…

  1- the so called facts you posted actually go to substantiate my claims that the atrocities people accuse DSG were committed way before he took over the LF…in fact they were committed by the very man your general relied on to save his family in October 1990. you listed a list of events that took place mostly BEFORE 1986 (date at which DSG took over the LF from Elie Hobeika).

  2- Fayez Azzi, my dear Einstein, was an adviser to your general for a long period of time which spanned his last 3 years in Lebanon as well as some of his years in France…

  also in case my dear Mr Google do not know, Mr Fayez Azzi is also a reputed member of the Baath party…yes the same party that is currently governing syria through the Assad family…

  Moreover, Fayez Azzi was the link between Hafez al Assad and Michel Aoun…along with Mou7sen Dalloul and other similar persons…those were the days aoun was caressing Syria presenting himself as a successor to Amine Gemayel for the presidency…

  While you are at it, look up a book called “wayabka al jaysh howa al 7al” written by Fou2d Aoun, an officer of the Lebanese Army…this officer ws highly rewarded by your general for the book…and the said book outlined the exact details of a major takeover of power in Lebanon by the army leading to a military govt.

  So do not superimpose your ignorance onto others and accuse them of childish behavior, hayda wa7ad.

  tnayn, for a person so devoutly following the general, I m surprised you are ignorant of his past…

  tleti, for someone who relies heavily on google, I am surprised you do not even know how to use the tool…a simple serch for Fayez+Azzi returned more than 10 pages of hits… ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Fayez%2Bazzi&btnG=Search ) to save you having to search all over again.

  I will quote the very first hit about him: http://www.alternative-online.org/CivilWar.htm

  “Fayez Azzi, a lawyer who joined the Arab Baath Socialist Party in his youth but left it later and became one of former Army Commander General Michel Aoun’s advisors during Aoun’s tenure as head of the interim military government between 1988 and 1990, said that progressive platforms in the Arab world could be hardly advanced.”

  so you see my dear “grandpa”…sometimes knowledge is not determined by age…but rather by a state of mind…anyways I will not dive into a philosophical debate over knowledge since I would be t a great advantage over you in this subject and I am not one to fight uneven battles

  yalla go learn some more how to use your PC and then come and lets discuss…

• 57. othello | September 10th, 2007 at 10:38 pm

  Oh by the way, my dear (In)dependent :

  The Alain Menargues book you speak about…there were 2 versions: one in arabic and one in french…

  there is a lot of controversy surrounding the arabisation of this book since the parts regarding the general’s affiliation to the Christian militias were shadowed on purpose…I believe there is even a lawsuit somewhere that the original author deposed against the translator…so if you were quoting the arabic version and relying on it for your knowledge, I would ask you to re-check your sources thats assuming you really read the book and not googled it (since it has been proven that your googling skills need a lot of improvement)

  regarding your criticism of the sources I sited, again you seem to rely heavily on google and wikipedia…

  for your info, wikipedia can be edited online by whoever wishes…so I would not build much on it if I were you since s we have seen in the last couple of months, some people are so good at faking facts

  and a final note: when a book is published, if its contents are controversial or defamatory, the author is usually sued in court by whoever considers himself a victim…and to this date, no one has sued any of the authors I sited, wheread Fisk and Hirsh are very very controversial authors as per their own peers…

  Regarding LBC and Al Nahar…you see some stations are very careful as to their reputation world wide and make everything possible to ensure their credibility is not jeopardized…which is not usually the case with OTV, Al Manar or Al Akhbar who, in the last couple of months, have shown the entire world the true meaning of tabloid trash…

  again, the ostrich tactic is not a very healthy one…for by denying the existence of an event you do not eradicate it nor do you simply make it inexistent…what you get is basically what you are showing the entire world on a public forum: a “maskhra” and you make yourself the joke of the week

  thanks for the late night laughs amigo…

  keep coming from time to time, ma to2ta3na…ma elna ghayrak

• 58. othello | September 10th, 2007 at 10:46 pm

  For fun, I decided to google Menargues…heres one of the results I got about the book

  Les Secrets de la guerre du Liban : Du coup d’état de Béchir Gémayel aux massacres des camps palestiniens
  de Alain Ménargues
  Langue : Français Éditeur : Albin Michel (5 mai 2004)
  Collection : Histoire
  Format : Broché - 554 pages
  ISBN : 2226121277
  Dimensions (en cm) : 16 x 4 x 24

  anyways, what you should have found out, even if you googled it without reading the book, is that the book stops way before 1986…in fact from 1981 to 1984…so I still fail to see how you are using it to support your arguments that geagea is a criminal etc etc etc…

  but then why the heck am I bothering anyways…after all I am just a kid no??? hehehehehehehhee

  wait until my elder son hears this…he will burst out laughing…anyways it will remain here for posterity

  woaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

• 59. Logical Person | September 10th, 2007 at 11:53 pm

  Othello, Seeing that you have sort of doubted only ONE of the sources that I have cited, then this must imply that you have been convinced that my sources are way more credible than your politically-affiliated, one-sided, biased sources.

  Geagea led operations on behalf of Gemayel until he took command of the LF in 1986 (source: Wikipedia) I do not see your point. This still means he participated in the massacres I have cited.

  Finally, now we are talking. Let your kid read this. I’m sure he will draw the same conclusions as yours since you have the same reasoning power.

  I rest my case. I have given up on you. You are pitifully stubborn. However, if you are ever in need, I will gladly pay for your tuition fee for the university courses I told you about. It was really fun talking to a child. lol. See you in another post.

• 60. Logical Person | September 10th, 2007 at 11:53 pm

  Logical Person=Independent

• 61. Logical Person | September 11th, 2007 at 12:12 am

  Othello, I read the French version of Menargue’s book. Wikipedia controls all article edits using a program called Wikiscanner. Time magazine dedicated an article two months ago to Wikipedia praising it for its “reliability” and its “growing popularity”. The Harvard Crimson newspaper reported that some of the professors at Havard University include wikipedia as sources. Nice try, sucker. Bye

• 62. othello | September 11th, 2007 at 7:59 am

  I figured it out without the clarification…same style and more importantly same blindness as to facts and same determination to live in total denial of reality…

  1- you can rest your case anytime but in this particular setup, you may not my friend.

  Why? because you have totally side tracked the entire post….if you re hoping I will give up and bail out, you are mistaken…if you hope you can bore me to death with these tricks, again, you are mistaken…

  2- Do you really read what I post or you just skimmed through??????

  I proved to you that:

  a- you are INCAPABLE of using google efficiently, while t the same time you rely on it for information.

  b- I proved beyond doubt that you are TOTALLY IGNORANT of your party’s history s well s its founder’s past, yet you profess to come and lecture me about the LF history???

  c- What sources do you speak about???

  the IRC??? Amnesty International????

  are you for real mate???

  are you sure you did not miss out taking your morning pills???

  You listed a series of international bodies and organizations, yet you FAILED TO ASSOCIATE each of these NGOs to the claims you listed in previous post…all you did was post the definition/statement of purpose of each of those organizations…

  so you claim to tell me the IRC stated that geagea lead the Sabra and Chatilla massacres???

  or that Amnesty International spoke about the Ehden Massacre???

  you quote wikipedia as if quoting the Bible…

  ya habibi Wikipedia is a resource that can be EDITED ONLINE BY ANYONE to SAY ANYTHING in case you do not know (and I am positive you don’t even have a clue)

  All I can tell you is get a life dude…wake up and smell the roses before you start smelling something totally different but then it would be too late for you.

  cheers

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