Joe Sarkis to Afkar Magazine : The LF dropped Federalism
Posted by N10452Here is the link to his interview with Afkar Magazine.
I am not sure how an ignorant can speak of such a project that way …
I am not sure how Hakim really believes Federalism is no more valid …
Tlo3na ma3 Joe Sarkis ” Eastern Arabs who never thought of instauring a Christian state !!”
Tlo3na Arabs bi ekhrit hal zaman !
Is that the new LF ?
Print
Email
Mar 21, 2008
khallina njeeb ra2iss awwal shi ba3den min fakker iza badna na3mol federalism.. fee security reasons abel kamen.. hezballah w syria, we can ignore their presence and their role in our destiny.
N, you want to break up Lebanon into little useless federations? Guess what the rest of us Lebanese will not allow one inch of Lebanon to be lost to you or anybody else.
We claim every grain of Lebanese soil is for ALL the Lebanese from the very North to the very South. Lebanon is ONE WHOLE country for all its people muslims christians and otherwise.
To carve a little bit of it to hide in so that you don’t have to deal with the issues of the “other Lebanese” is the coward’s way out of all our problems.
once for all ra7 ndal till the end …. “al joumhouriya” al loubnaniya mot al joumhouriya al 3arabia al loubnaniya is that clear ……..
N, shou ostak?
Se3a bet seb 7ezeb allah la2enno 3emil dawleh bi aleb el dawleh w se3a baddak ta3moul metlo?
N, your name is N10452! anyway federalism is different that small states ya chabab…N is right.
Lebanon is Arab in the eyes who want it Arab. We are cursed by the language that bounds us to this useless, completely useless 22 nation state that barely agrees on Anything. I don’t feel Arab. I never saw any common ground with Arabs; I respect many. But certainly not feel Arab. I am Lebanese. An entity ‘in my own right’.
Many nations speak only english, does that make then British? No. So what is it that makes Arabs have in common?
ahaaa… Religion? Eh la’
Dont Worry N , The new LFers still claim the Federalism , but they just can not announce it ! or else everyone will talk to usual shit about them…
Geagea Always have this in mind ….even his followers ! they just keep it for THE day to announce it….
They keep on pretending that they want One lebanon (facing what hezbollah have) in order to justify one day there federalism …
And yes we are arabs…Proud to be Arab Christians ! proud from the heart and from the land Where Christ has ressurected !
arze …maybe you are arab christian….but don’t say we are arab….if you want to talk seriously …..you should admit that only a part of lebanese people has arab roots..the others have different roots…..you are confusing politics with science…if you want to go into details ..i’m ready for it…
I’m surprised how ignorant some people can be about Federalism…or it is just because it is an LF idea..????
Arze is confirming that we are Arabs. She is saying that the nee LF beleives in federalism but they won;t say it. It means the LF are nothing but Arab Hypocrites.
Ya Arze min Jabalna, our LF, the one that I loved, worked for and defend, is not afraid to say we support Federalism.
It is plain and simple, Samir Geagea decided to drop it because Sahbo Saad will not support him anymore.
Ya3ne ya Arze surnet the new LF bunch of chickens.
Nona
You’re like a typical Lebanese.
From your comment, I understand that you have no idea what federalism is.
I suggest you look it up and understand how it can solve all our problems.
FEDERALISM IS NOT DIVISION.
We will remain one country just like the U.S, Germany, Canada…
ya N, basita hayne man nahna el ouwet ma menmasil 2ella 000,5 bel % men el cha3eb fa ra2yna ma bi2aser ya sadi2 2eza bahna ma3 2aw dod el federalye. bira2ye khale moumasel el masihye houe yekhoud hal decision la2eno fi nes 3atyoto sak melkye bi kel chi.
mabrouk.
el ouwet kenit ma3 federalye wa2ta el hareb bayn kel el tawa2ef wma hadan 3eref min dod min w ma3 min wkeno el masihye wel ouwet bi maw2a3 2ouwwe ya3ne el federalye rah tkoun monsfe biha2 el masihye baynama hala2 bchek 2eno tkoun monsfe fi nes msaytra 3al 2ard wma3a sle7 wrah tabe2 el federalye 3a zaw2a metel ma taba2o el ta2ef 3a zaw2oun. w2ekher chi b2elak yeh min ma heke bira2ye hayda mnao hake akid la2eno el ouwet ba3ed ma 3emlit mou2tamara el 3am wma hatit el 2anoun el jdid taba3a fa men hala2 la wa2ta 2eza joe sarkis 3endo ra2ey ghayr 3an zoumale2o mech ma3neta el kel biwef2ou el ra2ey hayde el dimocratye khaye cheers
thanks
mikel,
The countries you have shown as examples are huge, well funded with economic and natural resources! You really think Lebanon is going to run as a federation like Germany does? Ha, we will be worst example of a federation ever to exist, even worse than Belgium (which you didn’t mention as one of your examples funnily enough)
We are tiny, and breaking us furthur into little pieces will mean that we will lose what little cohesion we have left. The country will become one huge jigsaw puzzle and then the country will fall apart.
Nothing will keep us together, once we disagree on any major issue, each little federation will declare itself it’s own little (non-viable) state.
Whatever reasons you think that a federation will improve things, don’t tell me you don’t see this down the line. Don’t you know the Lebanese and their Zu3ama? Or maybe it is want you really want in the end???
What is more things are going to be divided along religious lines , if there is anything you should learn from the west, it is not that federations are the essence of a civilised state, but that complete separation of religion and state is the only way forward. If you divide us along religious federation lines the disagreements that we have now will mushroom into huge proportions that can never be reconciled because religion will always be brought into the argument.
What’s your federation going to do when Hizballah’s federation decides to launch another war on Israel? Who’s going to decide which person belongs to what federation, you do realise that most of the country is actually very mixed.
Stop being scared of the rest of the population, isolating yourselves is not the solutuion. Put out your hands out to join ours and let’s make this country whole.
Nona, you don’t mention Switzerland as one of your examples, funnily enough.
What grains and inches of Lebanese soil are you talking about? Are you talking about the ones in Harek Hreik and South Lebanon where Hezbollah “indibat” tell you where you can go and what you can see and what you can do?
What separation of religion and state you are talking about? Are you talking about the Jihadi education that most Shia receive? or the Umma Islamia that all Sunni belong to?
When Hezbollah launch another war our federation will not have to evacuate in the sea because we will have an airport built with the money we now pay so Hezbollah can have free electricity.
We are not scared and isolated, we just don’t want to be dragged into war and we don’t want to be bought by Saudi Arabia, if you don’t see this after 100 years of the same thing that’s your problem.
Enjoy your dreams and let others work for theirs.
KEZBALLAH…..GREAT REPLY….BADDAK YEFHAMO
kezb,
Your words show the paranoia and presectution delusion that you grip to. You want to run away from OUR problems so you don’t have to deal with any other Lebanese except the ones who think and act like you. Oh life would be so much easier that way. That’s the Ostrich’s way out my friend.
I don’t know what sunnis you’ve been hanging out with, but let me assure you 99% of Lebanese sunnis (ie apart from a few crazies like the ahbash and their likes) would be against an ummah Islammyia in Lebanon because it would destroy Lebanon. Just like a Lebanon that is only for its Christian Community would destroy Lebanon too.
On the other hand, if you were referring instead to the fact that the sunnis have links with a wider islamic community, well what’s wrong with that? It is just as fine as the maronites having links with the vatican and the wider catholic communities. We should foster links with others and not cut ourselves off from the world.
The only true Lebanon is a multicultural, multifaith one, it is what makes this nation special. If only we can handle it better!
Little by little we will make progress, look at us now: a sunni Beiruti posting a comment on an LF community site. A few years ago any interaction at all would have been impossible. See, progress already!
As for the Shiites and Hizballah, well that is our cause of being March 14 isn’t it? To prevent such things from continuing.
As partick said above so rightly, you can’t be against hizballah forming their own state within a state and then want to do the same for yourself.
And, about the Gulf countries, well you may not want to be bought by them but just try telling all the thousands upon thousands of Lebanese who work in the Gulf to leave their jobs and come back home to the poverty. If you are rich enough, good for you, the rest of us need work and the country is poor and neets monetary support. Who’s not being realistic now? Nobody wants to owe a cent to anybody(or Riyal if it makes you feel better) and maybe one day we’ll make it to that position of strength, who knows?
You can try to cut yourself off from them, but at a minimum, tell me just who do you anticipate will be the tourists coming to fill up our hotels if we are to have a viable Tourist industry ever again? The European backpackers who spend a few Euros on falafel? In the real world, you need money to eat.
You accuse me of having dreams of a whole Lebanon, I am proud to have dreams of a whole country. It is what it means to be a nationalistic and patriotic Lebanese citizen.
Nona, big words like paranoia and delusion don’t affect me, what affects me is to have a future for myself and my kids, you can call me what you want but it will not stop me from speaking and working to preserve my culture and my safety and my future, sorry but that’s the only important thing to me.
Lebanon the 10452 km2 or inches of soil if you prefer is very nice, Cheikh Bachir and the LF invented this 10452 and the Kataeb invented the coexistence in one country, did it work?? NO. Is it working now?? NO. We never took the easy way out we paid thousands of martyrs for this unity since 1970, they are all buried in the soil and nothing worked, we are worse now than before. Can you call their mothers paranoid and delusional? If you want to die trying the same thing you are free to do it but I don’t want to waste my life anymore.
I promise you if you can make it work I will join you, but until then let me live a few days in my neighborhood in peace, I have paid enough for your unity, the crazies in the Sunni they just burned our buildings and destroyed our cars because they were upset by a caricature, and the crazies Shia they fired RPG on our homes because they did not have electricity. Can you please spare me this unity? I can’t keep fixing my house and running for my life so you can feel good about this unity.
Make it work and we will join you, but when everyone is talking about war (EVERYONE from Nasrallah to Aoun, Joumblat even Hariri) it is my right to say I don’t want this stupid unity. I am not doing the same thing like Hezbollah, Hezbollah are imposing their way of life on me, I am not imposing anything on anyone, I am asking to live in peace with my rights.
And by the way the thousands upon thousands of Lebanese working in the Gulf they did not leave because of poverty only, they left because nothing is working in Lebanon since 1970. I am sorry to tell you your dream is their nightmare.
elie, I hope others will understand before they pay the same price we paid. They talk about secularism and they forget which area we live in and how people think in Lebanon and the Arab countries. Like the SSNP they talk about Souria Al Koubra and they can’t even unite Zgharta and Koura.
kezb,
so what you really want is not a federation, because in a federation, you would still have to interact with the other people in the country. What in essence you want is for everybody to go away and leave you alone. Your’e going to have an find an uninhabited island for that to happen.
Also I like how you didn’t mention that there are crazies from all the religions causing chaos, as I remember a few orange crazies lit up fires , burnt wheels and blocked roads , and were “training” for some sort of combat.Where are you going to hide from them?
The Lebanese muslims aren’t the ogers your mind has made them out to be , perhaps if you open your eyes and look properly, you might see that one day.
We have ALL,muslims ,christians and druze, worked really hard to achieve the magnificent depths we have sunk to in this country.
We are none of us blameless, at least be honest to yourself about that.
You are fatigued by the situation, it is understandable, we all are. I don’t understand how you can’t see that there are normal people of all religions in this country who are also fed up , tired and want to raise their kids in peace. Instead of joining with them you are running away from them. This is doubly sad when they reach out a hand to you.
nona, you are looking at everything from your side only and you are not putting yourself in my shoes. When you say we are all tired of the situation, it is not fair because we are not all tired the same way. The Sunni and Shia were not suffering in 1990s, only the Christians were outside the government and had no backing from anyone. We are much more tired.
When you compare the backing Sunnis have from Saudi and Egypt and the Shia backing from Iran and Syria to the backing of Christians from the Vatican, it’s also not fair. Christians don’t feel safe and strong in Lebanon that’s why we are leaving more than all the others.
The problem is not between me and moderate people like you, the problem is there is too much extremism and I can’t wait until the year 2050 to solve all these problems, I am becoming extinct in Lebanon. I don’t care if the solution is Federalism or Division or Multiplication, we can call it whatever but I can’t stay like this.
About the orange crazies burning tires, don’t worry about them we will take care of them
I don’t mean I want to fight them I mean if I am free to build a strong state federal or whatever, my government will take care of the crazies. Now we are not free to build a strong state for all Lebanese because we are divided, we have always been divided, we will always be divided. That’s not my fault, that’s how the reality is, I am trying to deal with the reality, I don’t want to keep dreaming something that will never happen.
If you think I am saying this because I am blind and that I think all moslems are ogers then this is just a proof that we are divided, you don’t trust what I am saying you are assuming I am closed-minded. I am telling you honestly what I think, you prefer I lie to you?
I told you if our problems are fixed in a fair way I will be very happy and honored to live together with you, but look around you and see how pathetic the situation is. Did you hear the shouts Allah Nasrallah wil Dahieh kella, and Damm el Sinnieh 3am yeghli ghali, ETC. You want me to pretend not to hear it?
kezb,
Like I said, there are crazies on all sides, You can’t hide by running away from it all.
You are in essence advocating the destruction of the country of Lebanon for your peace of mind.
The problem with your idea is that you will have to take a piece of my country with you to do that. You don’t have a right to take away any piece of Lebanon. Lebanon you see, is for all the Lebaense whether it is the heights of el-Arz, or the Southern mountains around marje3youn. Your need of a state within a state (or a federation if you want to be more politically correct) would destroy that.
I’m not sure how someone can claim to love their country and want to destroy at the same time.It seems once you guys finally got your goal and got everyone to start thinking in nationalistic terms, you decided to abandon your own nationalism.
Nona,
What country are you talking about ?? and what is it about Lebanon that you so deeply want to defend ??
And how the hell did u conclude that promoting federalism means dividing the country ???
What the LF proposed before and it should keep proposing today before any other day is a federal decentralized system that respects pluralism and the rights of everyone and MOST importantly preserves the Christians rghts and liberties, which are essential to Lebanon’s survivial ..
Now if you still cant see the Islamization process that is eating up Lebanon ad turning it into another Arab country, i suggest you take some history lessons ..
It is not the situation that is making us say that, we have been saying that since ever .. keeping Lebanon as it is .. keeping its sysem as it is is what is killing it …
To carve a little bit of it to hide in so that you don’t have to deal with the issues of the “other Lebanese” is the coward’s way out of all our problems.
Btw that is the lamest comment i ve heard on federalism so far … i propose to u a plan to solve all our differences, you tell me we r running away from other Lebaneses’ issues ??
I have a question for you ..
Do you even know what federalism is ??
Do a small search on the blog, read the many posts i posted on that issue then come back and argue ..
N,
We’ve moved away from the “federation” issue to the real issue as per kezb’s real stance: separation.
Everybody can now stop trying to impart their wisdom on me regarding federalism (and be so nauseatingly condesending in the process), I know what it is.
If you actually re-read what I wrote properly in my previous comments,you can see why I think that anything that starts out as “federalism”in this country will degenerate in no time into complete breakup of the nation.
Nona
We cannot keep living in the system that we have today because it’s obviously not working.
Our ideologies as Lebanese differ very drasticly.
We’re just a bunch of tribes who have nothing in common.
We held on for the first few decades of our young country, but we can’t keep it up anymore; we just cannot live together.
And you talk about not wanting Lebanon to be divided..
Can you honestly tell me that today Lebanon isn’t divided?
I would rather live in a SUCCESSFUL separated state than in a “united” FAILED state.
nona, your comparison is not realistic no matter how much you keep repeating it, there are crazies everywhere but tell me the last time you saw Christian crazies in Lebanon attack a mosque or burn an embassy. You are making it seem it is wrong to want to run away from this situation, what gives you the right to stick me with this fate for all my life? If next time there is a riot against a caricature in Denmark will you go down to the street and protect me? Will you convince Nasrallah that we did not come to Lebanon with the Byzantines and that this is not Islamic land?
It is ironic you use the word destruction of the country to describe federalism or even partition, the destruction is happening at the hands of those who don’t want federalism or partition like Nasrallah, he wants us to pay his bills while he plays war with Israel until the last Lebanese.
Please understand that when I talk about federalism I don’t mean to take a piece of land away from you, only partition changes the citizenship and I only want partition as a last solution, I mean if we can’t agree to live together in a federation then I don’t want to die or emigrate just so you can keep Lebanon in one piece, I am more important than the land.
Also please let’s stop this bidding war on who loves Lebanon more, I said we already paid thousands of martyrs since 1970 to keep Lebanon in one piece, I don’t want my children to go through the same thing.
mikel,
now that everyone has started admitting to the truth of it , at least your have stopped hiding behind the federation (as a first step) and admitted what you want is separation.
Well you can’t have it.
The country belongs to all of us and you can’t take any piece of it.
The funny thing is, I think you will have a huge fight on your hands from the people who live in the same area as you do and don’t want to be locked into a little federation (or later statelet) with you.
And kezb, you are not the only side that lost people in the civil war, you are being a little naive if you think it was fought for the good of the country and for “keeping the country whole” , and not for any personal ambition that the zu3ama /sects wanted to keep “the whole” of power and ambition.
We need to move on from the civil war mentality, and to tell you the truth, I’m a little worried that while we try to forge a country, there are so many of the obvious (Hizballah) and not so obvious (Kezballah) who disagree.
Anyway guys/gals, I will never change your minds, they’ve been obviously made up a long time ago. I don’t think what you want will ever be achievable or that it will be viable if attempted.
In the meantime (for now at least) Lebanon is still Lebanon from the very North to the very South.
nona, we are not the only side who have martyrs from the civil war that’s true, and it’s true it was a power struggle, but the Sunnis sided with the palestinians against the Christian Lebanese, and the Christians fought to keep Lebanon for all the Lebanese, that is also true and that is history and nothing will change history.
On the federalism topic, from my side this is not about minds being made up and changing them or not. You are advocating an option (one Lebanon for all) that you cannot deliver, no one was able to do it since 1943 and from even before, it keeps going worse we can’t appoint an employee in this so called one Lebanon anymore. I am advocating another option (federalism or partition or voodoo) because the first option is NOT working, but you insist that I should keep praying and dreaming and hoping and dying for it, just don’t think about anything else. If you don’t believe me look what you wrote yourself in the previous posts:
“The only true Lebanon is a multicultural, multifaith one, it is what makes this nation special. If only we can handle it better!”
These are your words: “IF ONLY we can handle it better” This is like if I tell you the best way to live is if you have a big mansion with a private jet, IF ONLY you can win the $100 million lottery. Of course that’s the best way to live, but it ain’t gonna happen!
So in conclusion if you come up with the $100 million, I will change my mind in a second I swear to you
But if you admit that the odds are 1 in 1 trillion then please don’t ask me to keep praying and hoping and dreaming and dying for it. I just want to live, even with just $5. That’s what Mikel is also saying, better to live in a successful small state than TO DIE in a failed big state.
leish ya 3ammi il kil mfakar il federalism hiy ti2seem il balad? Laika USA is federal, Switzerlan i federal, Malysia is federal and the list go on … The federalism should be applied in every country around the world, it is the best way to manage a country.