Comments on: On Federalism … ( Answering Fad14) http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/ Personal Views and opionions of Lebanese Forces members Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:49:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: N10452 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-88007 N10452 Mon, 20 Aug 2007 21:34:01 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-88007 Logical, First of all, you did a severe mistake when mentioning Sheikh Pierre and relating him to the Nazis .. No the Kataeb were NOT inspired by Hitler as an ideology, in fact if u read their ideology, its closer to secularism .. they were only impressed by the organizational power of the Nazis and facists however they were mostly inspired by the Sokols, A youth movement in Eastern Europe. As for Secularism, you cannot impose secularism that way but must prepare the society for it and decentralizing is the way to achieve that. Secularism is an aim, but the solution is Federalism. Logical,
First of all, you did a severe mistake when mentioning Sheikh Pierre and relating him to the Nazis ..
No the Kataeb were NOT inspired by Hitler as an ideology, in fact if u read their ideology, its closer to secularism .. they were only impressed by the organizational power of the Nazis and facists however they were mostly inspired by the Sokols, A youth movement in Eastern Europe.

As for Secularism, you cannot impose secularism that way but must prepare the society for it and decentralizing is the way to achieve that.

Secularism is an aim, but the solution is Federalism.

]]> By: Mohammad http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87557 Mohammad Sun, 19 Aug 2007 09:51:27 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87557 Although I like the idea of Federalism (especially after Oct 23 when people burned tires and cut roads) but I don't think we can apply it in Lebanon at least in this century. N10452 raised valid points and the comments here were all objective ones. However, I can't see it as a solution in Lebanon. Our problem (as I see it) is THE FEAR OF OTHERS. Each sect is afraid of the other sects plans. Each sect is thinking "what the other sect is planning to do? Are they going to eliminate us? How to take our rights from the other sect?..... If Federalism solves this sectarian/religiuos issues, then, NAHNO LAHA. Let it be if it is the solution. Although I like the idea of Federalism (especially after Oct 23 when people burned tires and cut roads) but I don’t think we can apply it in Lebanon at least in this century.
N10452 raised valid points and the comments here were all objective ones. However, I can’t see it as a solution in Lebanon.
Our problem (as I see it) is THE FEAR OF OTHERS. Each sect is afraid of the other sects plans. Each sect is thinking “what the other sect is planning to do? Are they going to eliminate us? How to take our rights from the other sect?…..
If Federalism solves this sectarian/religiuos issues, then, NAHNO LAHA. Let it be if it is the solution.

]]> By: Fad14 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87522 Fad14 Sun, 19 Aug 2007 04:45:53 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87522 Thank you N for a lengthy reply and its worth reading and expanding into. Looking at it, I am surely against federalism for the time being as we are busy or amazed by the idea of separating ourselves from each other thinking we will get our rights this way. Reading into it and the comments, we seem to ignore some major facts and here are a few: 1. The fight has always been bwn those who are in power and never bwn the people, so in this case federalism will never sort it but will only separate the people and cause more drift between them. 2. The main problems with our society was accepting the other LEBANESE and was never about accepting the OTHER religion. Example: Christians are happily living with minimum rights in the Gulf countries and Muslims are leaving happily with minimum rights in many of the European countries. 3. Federalism is meant to protect the rights of the leaders of every region, and in this case, we are diving our country wide problem to smaller state problems. Who will lead the Christians ? Who will lead the Muslims etc. and who will try to pull support from the other states to help him or them get into power ??? 4. How will the other states react to it ?????? In brief, Lebanon's main problem is that some LEADERS (RULERS) are not willing to lose with honor and will always try to use the external factor to help them gain power again or simply to stay in power and Federalism is the best way to start WAR again but this time between states rather than sects. The majority of LEBANESE people have been blind followers of a man in power or a man aspiring to be and they are willing to follow anything he says to get there. WE ARE looking at ways to divide but what we need is a massive education campaign to what politics are and what patriotism is. Country FIRST means religion and the other things come LATER. Federalism will put RELIGION FIRST and the country and what it represents, will be kicked down to the bottom of the list. Thank you N for a lengthy reply and its worth reading and expanding into.

Looking at it, I am surely against federalism for the time being as we are busy or amazed by the idea of separating ourselves from each other thinking we will get our rights this way.

Reading into it and the comments, we seem to ignore some major facts and here are a few:

1. The fight has always been bwn those who are in power and never bwn the people, so in this case federalism will never sort it but will only separate the people and cause more drift between them.

2. The main problems with our society was accepting the other LEBANESE and was never about accepting the OTHER religion.
Example: Christians are happily living with minimum rights in the Gulf countries and Muslims are leaving happily with minimum rights in many of the European countries.

3. Federalism is meant to protect the rights of the leaders of every region, and in this case, we are diving our country wide problem to smaller state problems. Who will lead the Christians ? Who will lead the Muslims etc. and who will try to pull support from the other states to help him or them get into power ???

4. How will the other states react to it ??????

In brief, Lebanon’s main problem is that some LEADERS (RULERS) are not willing to lose with honor and will always try to use the external factor to help them gain power again or simply to stay in power and Federalism is the best way to start WAR again but this time between states rather than sects.

The majority of LEBANESE people have been blind followers of a man in power or a man aspiring to be and they are willing to follow anything he says to get there.

WE ARE looking at ways to divide but what we need is a massive education campaign to what politics are and what patriotism is.

Country FIRST means religion and the other things come LATER. Federalism will put RELIGION FIRST and the country and what it represents, will be kicked down to the bottom of the list.

]]> By: Logical Person http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87491 Logical Person Sun, 19 Aug 2007 01:56:55 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87491 Rodge, I thank you for qualifying my comment as « good » and am glad that you found my point of view to be appealing. However, I am compelled to disagree with you on the criticism you have leveled against me. When I said that my comment fell on deaf ears, I was decrying the fact that my comment was ignored. I never claimed that my comment was right. I was simply stating that it was overlooked. Furthermore, I should point out the hypocrisy inherent within your words. You ask me to be open-minded (which seems out of place as my comment does not suggest otherwise), and then you fail to apply this to yourself: “and don’t think that what u say will change my mind”. Well, you cannot be clearer than that. Also Rodge, whether u like it or not, it is a fact that the Kataeb, which claim that we are of Phoenician descent, translates into The Phalange Party, which alludes clearly to its far-right ideology. Also it is a well-known fact that Pierre Gemayel was awe-inspired by Hitler and that his Phalangist Youth Scout was an imitation of the Hitlerian Youth. So I guess Christians who believe we are Phoenician are irrefutably fascists. My friend, it is precisely these fascist Christians who are deliberately forgetting 6000 years of civilization by asserting that we are exclusively Phoenician or Lebanese. One must not forget the mosaic of civilizations that have settled on our lands: from Phoenicians, to Canaanites, to Egyptians, to Greeks, Romans and lastly to Arabs. Furthermore, claiming we are Lebanese omits the fact that barely 50 years ago, the peoples of what are now Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine/Israel were simply called Syrians or Levantines since we shared the same history, language and culture. Saeed Akl is nuts to believe otherwise. N 10452, so secularism is the only solution as I stated in my previous comment. Your idea of passing through a federalist stage before going onto secularism does not sound coherent and seems like a waste of time. Why not pass directly into secularism? Secularism breeds true nationalism as it eliminates sectarian stipulation which u intend to preserve for a federal Lebanon. Rodge,
I thank you for qualifying my comment as « good » and am glad that you found my point of view to be appealing. However, I am compelled to disagree with you on the criticism you have leveled against me. When I said that my comment fell on deaf ears, I was decrying the fact that my comment was ignored. I never claimed that my comment was right. I was simply stating that it was overlooked. Furthermore, I should point out the hypocrisy inherent within your words. You ask me to be open-minded (which seems out of place as my comment does not suggest otherwise), and then you fail to apply this to yourself: “and don’t think that what u say will change my mind”. Well, you cannot be clearer than that. Also Rodge, whether u like it or not, it is a fact that the Kataeb, which claim that we are of Phoenician descent, translates into The Phalange Party, which alludes clearly to its far-right ideology. Also it is a well-known fact that Pierre Gemayel was awe-inspired by Hitler and that his Phalangist Youth Scout was an imitation of the Hitlerian Youth. So I guess Christians who believe we are Phoenician are irrefutably fascists. My friend, it is precisely these fascist Christians who are deliberately forgetting 6000 years of civilization by asserting that we are exclusively Phoenician or Lebanese. One must not forget the mosaic of civilizations that have settled on our lands: from Phoenicians, to Canaanites, to Egyptians, to Greeks, Romans and lastly to Arabs. Furthermore, claiming we are Lebanese omits the fact that barely 50 years ago, the peoples of what are now Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine/Israel were simply called Syrians or Levantines since we shared the same history, language and culture. Saeed Akl is nuts to believe otherwise. N 10452, so secularism is the only solution as I stated in my previous comment. Your idea of passing through a federalist stage before going onto secularism does not sound coherent and seems like a waste of time. Why not pass directly into secularism? Secularism breeds true nationalism as it eliminates sectarian stipulation which u intend to preserve for a federal Lebanon.

]]> By: Charbel Gharios http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87326 Charbel Gharios Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:37:39 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87326 i think that with the current Lebanese demography and the % of each sect the only thing we should be aiming for as Christians (less than 30% of Lebanon’s population) is elghe2 elta2ifye el syesye.. maybe the federalism will work for sometime but they will keep circling us until we vanish..we are and always be trapped between the sunni – chiit regional conflict .. you say that we should think that it could happen like Switzerland or US or …. But name one state in the whole world where federalism can be applied on the basis of religion..i mean think about It, how can it work it is like hiding your head in the sands for a decade or two.. i think that with the current Lebanese demography and the % of each sect the only thing we should be aiming for as Christians (less than 30% of Lebanon’s population) is elghe2 elta2ifye el syesye..
maybe the federalism will work for sometime but they will keep circling us until we vanish..we are and always be trapped between the sunni – chiit regional conflict ..
you say that we should think that it could happen like Switzerland or US or …. But name one state in the whole world where federalism can be applied on the basis of religion..i mean think about It, how can it work it is like hiding your head in the sands for a decade or two..

]]> By: N10452 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87297 N10452 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:14:59 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87297 Fad14, The Federal map that was set was done in a way to regroup all cities and villages that are from the same religion, therefore limiting the relocations to very few ones, and u should understand that no one is asking anyone to relocate, but if a Christian village in the middle of a Shiite region wishes to live in Achrafieh, he will be most welcome, if not he will stay there and adapt to live unrepresented politically, this has always been the case anyway. No one will reallocate anyone, but the federal states will be divided in a way to keep the 50-50 ratio, and as i mentioned, the elections are not based on religion, so if Christians outnumber Druzes in Aley in 10 years, they will have the seat etc etc ... Relocation is not required unless some people wish to do so and in case it was required, we will not destroy the whole plan cause of few villages and stubborn villagers who dont wish to leave. We have a country to save and a future to build. Fad14,
The Federal map that was set was done in a way to regroup all cities and villages that are from the same religion, therefore limiting the relocations to very few ones, and u should understand that no one is asking anyone to relocate, but if a Christian village in the middle of a Shiite region wishes to live in Achrafieh, he will be most welcome, if not he will stay there and adapt to live unrepresented politically, this has always been the case anyway.

No one will reallocate anyone, but the federal states will be divided in a way to keep the 50-50 ratio, and as i mentioned, the elections are not based on religion, so if Christians outnumber Druzes in Aley in 10 years, they will have the seat etc etc …

Relocation is not required unless some people wish to do so and in case it was required, we will not destroy the whole plan cause of few villages and stubborn villagers who dont wish to leave.

We have a country to save and a future to build.

]]> By: N10452 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87295 N10452 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:10:59 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87295 I am glad this topic is turning into a constructive debate .. To answer logical : The question of Lebanon's identity is resolved in the Federal System as proposed by the LF and Dr.Najm. We have two different identities in Lebanon, a Muslim Arab and a Christian Lebanese one, phoenician and bla bla are just heritages which we all should be proud of, and i recommend you do further research on the Phoenicians since many reports claimed an impressive % of Lebanese are descendants of Phoenicians .. anyway this is a different topic and i will be glad to debate it. I consider myself Lebanese first and foremost, and am proud of my Phoenician heritage and all other heritages. How will the identity be resolved ? simple .. Lebanon will remain an Arab country within the Arab league but it will preserve its non-Muslim image. Once the sentiment of fear of the other will dissapear, people will be less attached to their religion and will grow a proper nationalistic feeling through general awareness programs and even secular ones which i encourage. That way, we will be preparing secular nationalistic future generations and then maybe one day, we might have one true identity and one united secular country. Federalism is the way to Secularism. Applying secularism right now as it is is a disaster. You need decentralization to work on secularising the people. As for the Foreign policy, it seems you did not read me properly, It will be neutrality whereas each side can support whomever he wants, but you cannot go to war without the other party's acceptance and there is a veto right for each side. So basically, we will stay away from all conflicts. I dont understand how you based yourself on the first point to refute Federalism. Sheikh Bashir was always favorable for a secular state, but he was convinced it could never happen without secularising the people and in order to do so, you need to take away the religious sentiment through a decentralized country. Thats the magic formula. I am glad this topic is turning into a constructive debate ..

To answer logical :

The question of Lebanon’s identity is resolved in the Federal System as proposed by the LF and Dr.Najm.
We have two different identities in Lebanon, a Muslim Arab and a Christian Lebanese one, phoenician and bla bla are just heritages which we all should be proud of, and i recommend you do further research on the Phoenicians since many reports claimed an impressive % of Lebanese are descendants of Phoenicians .. anyway this is a different topic and i will be glad to debate it.
I consider myself Lebanese first and foremost, and am proud of my Phoenician heritage and all other heritages.

How will the identity be resolved ? simple ..
Lebanon will remain an Arab country within the Arab league but it will preserve its non-Muslim image. Once the sentiment of fear of the other will dissapear, people will be less attached to their religion and will grow a proper nationalistic feeling through general awareness programs and even secular ones which i encourage.

That way, we will be preparing secular nationalistic future generations and then maybe one day, we might have one true identity and one united secular country.

Federalism is the way to Secularism. Applying secularism right now as it is is a disaster. You need decentralization to work on secularising the people.

As for the Foreign policy, it seems you did not read me properly, It will be neutrality whereas each side can support whomever he wants, but you cannot go to war without the other party’s acceptance and there is a veto right for each side. So basically, we will stay away from all conflicts.

I dont understand how you based yourself on the first point to refute Federalism. Sheikh Bashir was always favorable for a secular state, but he was convinced it could never happen without secularising the people and in order to do so, you need to take away the religious sentiment through a decentralized country.

Thats the magic formula.

]]> By: N10452 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87292 N10452 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:00:56 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87292 Charbel, All comments are moderated on the blog. However if u post regularly, once i approve ur comment, others wont need moderation. Cheers. Charbel,
All comments are moderated on the blog. However if u post regularly, once i approve ur comment, others wont need moderation.

Cheers.

]]> By: fad14 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87287 fad14 Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:29:39 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87287 United Arab Emirates is a federal stated divided onto 7 major emirates and with a federal law to dictate major issues, and local laws to govern the local issues. However it is divided in borders that have been there for more than 100 years and it is not divided on secular or religious borders. Reading your replies, I think the biggest problem will be not creating the state but the relocation or (Move) of people between those states. Will Hizbulla leave beirut and dayhey ??? NO Will the christians leave their land in the shof Area ??? NO Will the Sunnis leave the 3 main cities (beirut, tripoli and Saida) ??? Who will pay for the relocation of the people ??? Its just quetions I continue to ask and they are not meant to be a challenge but rather just questions. United Arab Emirates is a federal stated divided onto 7 major emirates and with a federal law to dictate major issues, and local laws to govern the local issues.
However it is divided in borders that have been there for more than 100 years and it is not divided on secular or religious borders.

Reading your replies, I think the biggest problem will be not creating the state but the relocation or (Move) of people between those states.
Will Hizbulla leave beirut and dayhey ??? NO
Will the christians leave their land in the shof Area ??? NO
Will the Sunnis leave the 3 main cities (beirut, tripoli and Saida) ???
Who will pay for the relocation of the people ???

Its just quetions I continue to ask and they are not meant to be a challenge but rather just questions.

]]> By: Rodge http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/comment-page-1/#comment-87280 Rodge Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:19:23 +0000 http://www.ouwet.com/n10452/information/on-federalism-answering-fad14/#comment-87280 Logical, I thank you for your good comment and you have a good point pf view there, but on the other hand it is not good to think that we are right if we have a good point, and we can't accuse others of being deaf, especially people on this blog. Dear Logical, when you present a certain idea, you should be open minded to others, something i thought you are while reading ur words, and u can't decide who's wrong and who's right in this matter. Also if you didn't like my comment, please don't include all the persons commenting in this blog, because i don't think there's a much opened blog than this one, and while some people are below the required level of communicating, most of them are beyond this level, including you i assume. So let's not criticize each others, and don't think that what u say will change my mind, i'm with the Federalism, eventhough i recognize there are some difficulties to implement it in Lebanon. Also i want to comment on you words saying, and i quote "some fascist christians dubiously claim is phoenician". Do you think this description as sppropriate? even u're deliberatley forgetting 6000 years of civilization, or you're considering people such as Saeed Akl as nuts. If you don't agree on something, don't describe people of being Fascist, or else we can't start to have a real dialogue. We should respect each others views, and being honest and straight in our replies. I'm not saying i'm totally right, and i think i'm a very open minded person, which allows me to take every criticism or opinion in consideration, and this does not mean if i said what i'm thinking of, that i'm deaf or don't know ho to read. I assure you that i read well and i write even better, or else i wouldn't become a journalist. So please keep respect in here, and i'm ready to debate openely and respectfully with you or any other person. Thank you Logical,

I thank you for your good comment and you have a good point pf view there, but on the other hand it is not good to think that we are right if we have a good point, and we can’t accuse others of being deaf, especially people on this blog.
Dear Logical, when you present a certain idea, you should be open minded to others, something i thought you are while reading ur words, and u can’t decide who’s wrong and who’s right in this matter.
Also if you didn’t like my comment, please don’t include all the persons commenting in this blog, because i don’t think there’s a much opened blog than this one, and while some people are below the required level of communicating, most of them are beyond this level, including you i assume.
So let’s not criticize each others, and don’t think that what u say will change my mind, i’m with the Federalism, eventhough i recognize there are some difficulties to implement it in Lebanon.
Also i want to comment on you words saying, and i quote “some fascist christians dubiously claim is phoenician”. Do you think this description as sppropriate? even u’re deliberatley forgetting 6000 years of civilization, or you’re considering people such as Saeed Akl as nuts. If you don’t agree on something, don’t describe people of being Fascist, or else we can’t start to have a real dialogue.
We should respect each others views, and being honest and straight in our replies.
I’m not saying i’m totally right, and i think i’m a very open minded person, which allows me to take every criticism or opinion in consideration, and this does not mean if i said what i’m thinking of, that i’m deaf or don’t know ho to read. I assure you that i read well and i write even better, or else i wouldn’t become a journalist. So please keep respect in here, and i’m ready to debate openely and respectfully with you or any other person.
Thank you

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