You keep on making assumptions.
I never said that I am not ready to criticize Islamic text and teachings.

I just need a humble and respectful person, that’s all. Otherwise, the whole arguments are futile.

Anyway, I wish you happy holidays.

Best regards,
Ibrahim

To me God is the epitome of humanism, not the petty jealous being with base human needs and wants, who eggs credulous devotees on to kill on his behalf. I don’t give a rat’s ass about what your Muslim scholars say! The fact remains that Islam, like any other ideology, has to be looked at empirically not textually. The fact remains that, empirically, Islam’s history remains a bloody intolerant brutal one. The fact remains that the killers on behalf of Islam are good Muslims who believe that they are doing God’s work on earth; their pathologies are inherent to Islam.
Again, if you are so blinkered by “faith” as to deny these realities–the atrocities committed on your behalf and in the name of YOUR religion–, then there’s no sense in debating you about anything.

What I look for is tranparency; what your aim is (as is the aim of many other well-meaning good Muslims), is obfuscation and muddling of the issues so as to shield Islam from criticism. THERE ARE no holy cows in Western societies! EVERYTHING and EVERYONE (from Korans and Gospels to Muhammads and Joshuas) EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is fair game and subject to the microscope! YOU’RE the one barricaded in a box, not I. I tell you let’s let it rip, you tell me Islam is untouchable! I say that’s bullshit!
Enough said.

What is the big deal if we had different opinions and beliefs. Why couldn’t we have a decent dialogue. Is my religeous identity behind this hatred?!!!!

You didn’t answer even a single question.

Anyway kindly remove yourself from the box which you locked yourself in. The generliazations and stereotypes you used don’t apply to me.

At the end, we are all humans so I respect the human aspect of any person including any Christian, Jew, Budhist…. and we are all equal on this level.

I don’t respect any idea that degrades women.

You can be sure of one thing, I will neither be an admirer to Ahmadi Najad nor to sayyed Hassan. There is no Arab president that represents me starting with Bashar and ending with the Saudi king.

As for the terrorist acts, you can review the statements of any Muslim scholar around that topic.

Unfortunately we still cannot accept ”the other”.

By the way, my atheist friends in this European country where I live are more than my Muslim friends.

Again and again, I have nothing against you as a person….
So please remove this hatred from your heart.

For the rest, it’s useless debating you!

1- You’re a religion freak, and I’m not!

2- The basis of your identity is religious (same as that of Medieval Europeans), and mine is not!

3- Wars of religions is not a relevant topic to me, yet it is to you and to the majority of Muslims that I know!

4- My culture doesn’t do “flying into buildings” and “decapitating peoples on videotape” and “suiciding themselves” in the name of religion, and YOURS DOES!

So, in the end, your silly argument about the “historicity” of Koran and its “scientific wonder”, as opposed to the presumed falsity of the Bible etc… is all pissing in the wind.
The fact remains that Christendom (that is Europe and Western Culture, NOT Christians per se), it remains that Christendom, despite its false message (as you would like to delude yourself) can run circles around your culture, which is slumbering and wallowing in useless arguments…

Additionally, you wanna talk about modern day slavery, repression, inequality, totalitarianism, torture on a cultural scale, oppression of women and sex slavery, closetted pedophilia and raging homosexuality, unequal relationships between totalitarian rulers and brutalized ruled??? LOOK AT YOURSELF and YOUR “Chosen Umma”! You people have written the book on all of these ills! It is called the Koran.

Sure, there are snippets of all of these ills in Western culture, but at least in OUR world these are the exceptions not the rules, and we live in TRANSPARENT societies (I don’t think you know what transparency means) where wrongs CAN BE AIRED OUT and remedied. In your culture you have whack jobs like Ahmadinejad who can tell the world with a straight face that “in our [Muslim] societies we don’t have peoples like these [homosexuals] as in your society…”

What a joke you people are! I guess all the AIDS cases seeping out of the Muslim world these days (in spite of your age old practice of obscurantism and distortion of truth) all of these cases of AIDS are some Zionist conspiracy, NOT THE FACT THAT YOUR CLOSETS ARE BEING VIOLENTLY FLUNG OPEN BY THE SHEER SIZE OF THE SKELETONS YOU’VE BEEN JAMMING INSIDE OF THEM FOR CENTURIES.

THERE IS ONE, ONLY ONE, WORD THAT CAN ADEQUATELY DESCRIBE YOUR CULTURE AND YOUR MEDIEVAL ATTITIDES, IBRAHIM! HYPOCRISY!

IT IS GOD WILLING TO BE DIFFERENT & FROM THAT ASPECT U CAN FEEL THE MEANING OF LIFE

There is just one thing that I would like to comment on from the low language: “give it up, girl”. Why did you say that. Are you insulting me by saying that I am a girl?

Besides that I will try to argue in a rational and not impulsive way.

First you didn’t answer my question.

Secoond you made a fallacy: what happened to the European Christians doesn’t apply to Mulims because everything is different.
The Church in Europe tortured and killed scientists, opressed people, divided the paradise for people and took its price from its followers and finally they played a dirty political role.

Many parts were also added and removed to the bible and many statements from the old and new testaments were refuted by science. The flood that took place at the time of Noah is one example.

All this doess’t apply to Islam. There are plenty of scientific statements in the Quran and there is not a single contradiction with any scientific fact. In fact that scientific statements in the Quran were confirmed by modern science in the twentieth century. You can review it to make sure.

Another point: the religeous scholars were themselves the scientists in chemistry, physics, mathematics because there is no seperation between science and religion in Islam.

The point that I am trying to make is that what you said applies to christianity and not to Islam.

As for the question about the nature of God, you can review the history of theological debate in Islam and you will realize that this issue was never considered because the Islamic belief states that it could never be known. Angels are believed to be neither males nor females so it is not an issue either.

As for the advanced world that you are talking about, I suggest you make some research and conduct some studies.
The West is not the advanced as you might think. There are huge places of the US that are insecure. The number of sex slaves is in hundreds of thousands. Addicts are in millions. the number of people who were killed in the wars of the twentieth century under secular governments is around 178 million. Not to forget the different forms of discrimination…

However there are some great tehnological achievements and some great scholars from the West and I admire that. I also admire the work and discipline of European.s

One last thing, make a study about the number of practicing Muslims who are doing graduate studies in Europe and you will be surprised.

Hope you change your attitude,
Best wishes,
Ibrahim

Those are some references about what I said:
About sex slaves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uebRX2v83RI

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1173695121639&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout

Scientific Miracles of the Quran:
http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/audio/Maurice_Bucaille/Scientific_Miracle_in_the_Quran/Scientific_Miracle_in_the_Quran.html

Science and Islam:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016316

Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier because I had an exam.

Guys, how can what you believe is God or part of God be killed. How can He be in need to breathe, eat, drink, sleep…?

God should not need anything from anybody.

He should not have any kind of weakness.

Human beings have by nature many weaknesses and therefore God can never be represented with a human image.

This short article explains what I mean.
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1154526120043&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout